tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post6521933131041719836..comments2024-03-26T15:19:23.091-07:00Comments on false dichotomy by charles davis: Declaring what Occupy DC stands forCharles Davishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06005070529766546097noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-9679195904273560262011-11-20T11:30:57.192-08:002011-11-20T11:30:57.192-08:00Thanks for the clarification, Jack. We could do so...Thanks for the clarification, Jack. We could do some variation on the old Leninist-vs-anarchist routine, about the best way to dismantle oppressive structures, but there are better things to do with our time and energy. ODC briefly took a building yesterday.gavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-42169364452738299442011-11-19T11:28:42.629-08:002011-11-19T11:28:42.629-08:00And to be brief about her argument: what she is su...And to be brief about her argument: what she is suggesting is the absence of formal authority leaves an opening for informal authority which therefore justifies a formal authority. It depends upon a single premise: that authority itself is inevitable, so why not piss on the anarchists and have a formal one?Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-14736099435994241612011-11-19T09:53:19.277-08:002011-11-19T09:53:19.277-08:00I treated with her actual text, Gavin. This is not...I treated with her actual text, Gavin. This is not a <i>reification</i> of behaviors as structure. It's a critique of her <i>concretization</i> of human obeisances as somehow separate structures of conduct.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-79601980537564161972011-11-19T06:56:44.713-08:002011-11-19T06:56:44.713-08:00Jack, these are not philosophical assumptions -- s...Jack, these are not philosophical assumptions -- she's basing her claims on a wealth of empirical evidence from working in decentralized social justice groups for many years.<br /><br />You're the one working from an reified assumption of structure-as-hierarchy -- that it is a separate THING that must be fought directly, instead of a kind of social relation that emerges from unequal power among people. Privilege (surely you agree this exists, including in the occupations) is a kind of informal structure because it instantiates itself in social relations in just this way. There are no laws or rules that say tall, white masculine men should be in charge of things, but it tends to happen a lot, including in decentralized groups. <br /><br />Freeman has no "root assumption," it's not "necessarily so" -- she LIVED this, it happens, and she walked the structureless walk for a long time, so I'm inclined to listen to her carefully, not write her off as a Maoist or whatever.<br /><br />But we don't have to belabor the point. I think we agree that the major issue is that occupydc's insufficient radicalism is succeeding only at marginalizing itself, and that if it wants to do more than serve as a hobby for progressives, that has to change.gavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-30648483001776046122011-11-18T19:16:28.938-08:002011-11-18T19:16:28.938-08:00ugh - "will naturally seek"ugh - "will naturally seek"Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-39746622102509769582011-11-18T19:15:34.009-08:002011-11-18T19:15:34.009-08:00That's what I'm getting at, Gavin. The wri...That's what I'm getting at, Gavin. The writer assumes that without structure - which is actually training, obedience, education, belief and socialization - people with naturally seek aristoi. She doesn't approve, but she treats it <i>as necessarily so.</i> There's a deep epistemic assumption that, sans formal structure, people <i>cannot but help themselves</i> to create so-called informal structures.<br /><br />This ignores what structure actually is, and how hierarchies are actually formed and maintained.<br /><br />She is separating privilege, and its attendant benefits, from the existing formal hierarchies, in order to criticize the lack of hierarchy as a mirror of hierarchy. On top of being muddled and confused, and poor logic, it's root presumption is that human persons have no choice but to form them, when either educated to do so, or left to their own devices.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-55749604329517977202011-11-18T16:44:25.273-08:002011-11-18T16:44:25.273-08:00I dunno Jack, I thought the relevant point was tha...I dunno Jack, I thought the relevant point was that "structureless" groups end up having informal structures (cliques), which become impenetrable to anybody else and unaccountable because in the name of structurelessness, no one formalizes rules or procedures. And that this tends to benefit privileged people. I don't really understand what your post is about.<br /><br />Another useless action today, as admitted by the occupation -- no, we will have NO effect on your commute! I am going to find a way to get out there more in the next week, maybe we can shift the discourse away from how best to be ignored while making cops feel loved.gavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-14404616906612238292011-11-18T14:53:30.157-08:002011-11-18T14:53:30.157-08:00Gavin, I didn't say that. The failure is mostl...Gavin, I didn't say that. The failure is mostly due to the knee-jerk war support that is endemic in America. My larger point is that marches to get media coverage hasn't ever brought people into the anti-war movement and it never will. (It would take a damn smart and strategic direct action to do this). While 1-1 conversations can. Even 1-small crowd testimonies can work if the speaker and moment is right.<br /><br />The bridge was SEIU. Labor groups had this day on the calendar for a while. So it was hierarchical.<br /><br />Mark (I'm getting tired of typing out Name/URL).Mark Ericksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12604074895219791713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-43356789185240357542011-11-18T14:31:39.229-08:002011-11-18T14:31:39.229-08:00So that "Tyranny of Structurelessness," ...So that "Tyranny of Structurelessness," when not entirely abusing the meaning of the word, <i>tyranny,</i> was so full of hanging assumptions, unstated Maoist biases and an almost Orthodox maximalist defensiveness about leadership and natural aristoi (called here, <i>elites</i> and treated as necessary) that it could be a damned primer on how to get a thousand sectarians splits within three years' time and end up with a thousand and one Avakian-type cults of the dear leader, each with the most perfect and final form of not only the revolutionary party to save all the possible tomorrows, but the Only True Doctrine of Revolution, itself.Jack Crowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499087036876745723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-84043767701198185532011-11-18T14:30:14.836-08:002011-11-18T14:30:14.836-08:00Charles, you can politely make the point that many...Charles, you can politely make the point that many people from all stripes of the political spectrum are fed up with "Imperialism".<br /><br />I may be a crazy Paulista, but I became one only after hearing him talk about "Empire" in his original "Presidential Exploratory Committee" video (<a href="http://youtu.be/FPlPT4bncq8" rel="nofollow">still online after almost five years</a>).*<br /><br />Talking about Imperialism is an effective means of drawing people <i>into</i> your movement, precisely <i>because</i> it's a message never offered by mainstream candidates and media outlets.<br /><br />No one is going to come to the Occupy movement unless they already share a disillusionment with the current state of affairs. The Draft Committee should go with their strongest truths, and as the gentleman from El Salvador pointed out, American Imperialism is undeniable.<br /><br />*Apologies in advance for fulfilling the RP fanboy stereotype of linking to a video every opportunity I get.Portmanteurhttp://twitter.com/#!/Portmanteurnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-30068193386048474912011-11-18T11:49:08.721-08:002011-11-18T11:49:08.721-08:00Mark, I don't think the failures of the anti-w...Mark, I don't think the failures of the anti-war movement are necessarily due to having an organizational structure. In any case, they seem to have taken an active interest in learning new tactics. They also have people experienced in direct action, which is incredibly useful. <br /><br />I couldn't come to the bridge yesterday, but from what I've read, it was basically a failure, designed to be ignored, and successful at that. It was designed by a (purportedly) non-hierarchical organization. It was aimed at Obama campaign talking points. This is a problem. I'm not going interested in spending time and energy supporting Obama. <br /><br />So something more than organizational structure is going awry here. I think charlie's agitation is a good way to push the movement away from Obama. It might be useful to focus on his economic policies as well, since that is closer to the heart of Occupy.<br /><br />BTW Jo Freeman's "Tyranny of Structurelessness" should be required reading for anyone involved in Occupy: http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htmgavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-32683651089890505482011-11-18T10:31:45.911-08:002011-11-18T10:31:45.911-08:00I'm happy that folks are providing a better lo...I'm happy that folks are providing a better look at OWS than what the crony-controlled MSM "provides." However, and I mean this in the best possible way, I can't help but see Eric Idle in Judaic women's garb, while Sue Jones-Davies, Michael Palin and John Cleese converse:<br /><br />Judith: [on Stan's desire to be a mother] Here! I've got an idea: Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb - which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans' - but that he can have the *right* to have babies. <br />Francis: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother... sister, sorry. <br />Reg: What's the *point*? <br />Francis: What? <br />Reg: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies, when he can't have babies? <br />Francis: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression. <br />Reg: It's symbolic of his struggle against reality. <br /><br />I guess amidst all the anti-fiat-money, crony-this&that, Freedom "For" vs. Freedom "From"<br />crowd noise, it starts to sound more like 1000 Chrlie Brown's Teachers occupied everything. <br /><br />So there. A bit of levity. I now return you to your regularly scheduled, umm, whatever.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16161775717285215932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-5312068124242861052011-11-18T09:35:47.204-08:002011-11-18T09:35:47.204-08:00"I don't think anyone's belligerently..."I don't think anyone's belligerently pro-war."<br /><br />Thank FSM for that! The problem is anti-empire is seen as a cultural taboo, even by a bunch of DFH's. If even OWSers don't want to touch it, that's a problem.Mark Ericksonhttp://norwegianshooter.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-63908841803583320892011-11-18T09:33:16.115-08:002011-11-18T09:33:16.115-08:00The moment you start claiming "races" in...The moment you start claiming "races" in your speech, you will become the racist.<br /><br />Do not look at groups of people and give them rights, look at every single individual and give them rights, that way, everyone gets rights evenly that is the only way to avoid racism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-63772160105041457952011-11-18T09:25:23.735-08:002011-11-18T09:25:23.735-08:00Gavin, of course the anti-war protesters have more...Gavin, of course the anti-war protesters have more direct actions. They are controlled top-down. The problem is, direct action does not equal successful movement. In fact, the anti-war movement has been an utter failure in spite of having massive rallies at some points and times. And once Dems got some power, it evaporated. They got extremely lucky that OWS arose a month before their planned action. If OWS never happened, and there were some people camping out and saying stop funding the military, targeting the Super Committee of all the pointless things to do, it is likely to have failed like all the rest. <br /><br />Anti-war is incredibly hard to spread among Americans. Education at occupations is about the best way to do so that exists right now. (Some are floating convincing Iowans to vote Ron Paul in the GOP caucuses. It's possible I guess, but he would still be a pariah in the media). There's a long road to travel and person to person conversations is a good place to start.Mark Ericksonhttp://norwegianshooter.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-43161493808520128712011-11-18T05:26:51.590-08:002011-11-18T05:26:51.590-08:00I don't know what a "race lens" is.....I don't know what a "race lens" is... In my experience everything makes more sense when you include racism and imperialism. These look like posts by people of color who have experienced racism or other forms of stupidity from occupiers. Not that far out, really -- the occupations started really tone-deaf to racism. In my opinion, they've improved, but it's incomplete and an on-going struggle.gavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-52534637927596761902011-11-17T23:04:17.951-08:002011-11-17T23:04:17.951-08:00JM's links are more proof that not everything ...JM's links are more proof that not everything makes sense when viewed through the race lens, I guess.Brad Stridernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-82380925784665870362011-11-17T21:34:22.010-08:002011-11-17T21:34:22.010-08:00I always thought "No war but class war" ...I always thought "No war but class war" was a handy synthesis.jcapannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-32209259236362236792011-11-17T12:45:01.911-08:002011-11-17T12:45:01.911-08:00There's a backlash happening:
http://so-treu.t...There's a backlash happening:<br />http://so-treu.tumblr.com/post/12927341052/karnythia-dreams-from-my-father<br />http://jaded16india.tumblr.com/post/12926648982/fuck-owsJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03223879013564312871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-44105510488923936992011-11-17T12:12:57.716-08:002011-11-17T12:12:57.716-08:00I'm a little confused about the objections to ...I'm a little confused about the objections to "empire." Even CBS News authors stories about the empire and its prospects (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/12/05/opinion/main7121029.shtml). Max Boot uses the term approvingly, as do Charles Krauthammer and Niall Ferguson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism). They don't seem to fear rejection by the "mainstream."<br /><br />I guess empire is only a word to be feared if it's used as pejorative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-15951190279249607482011-11-17T09:10:38.940-08:002011-11-17T09:10:38.940-08:00While the anti-war, anti-empire angle isn't as...While the anti-war, anti-empire angle isn't as front and center at McPherson as I'd like, I do see some peace signs and I don't think anyone's belligerently pro-war.<br /><br />According to the people on the declaration committee who were working on the statement for the past month, opposition to "empire" was one of the top suggestions they received for inclusion in the declaration (there was a suggestion box for just that purpose), but a few sensitive, let's-appeal-to-the-mainstream types on the committee blocked its inclusion in the draft presented at the GA.Charles Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06005070529766546097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-30216896843607987462011-11-17T09:05:12.934-08:002011-11-17T09:05:12.934-08:00Actually, I think the Stop the Machine people have...Actually, I think the Stop the Machine people have succeeded in doing more and more dramatic actions than the decentralized McPherson people. There is some overlap and collaboration in the actions, I believe, but not sure how much.<br /><br />I am not in favor of appealing to the right. I'd rather appeal to the huge left base of DC, a city which is majority people of color who are far more disadvantaged by the current system than most of the occupiers. They will not show up if college kids start courting racists and libertarians (who deride the poor as lazy parasites) instead. The Ron Paul asshole at McP has the gall to lecture the homeless about individual initiative, even shouting them down. Fuck him and his ilk, they don't help.gavinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-26424157374201237772011-11-17T08:51:24.581-08:002011-11-17T08:51:24.581-08:00I have to CLICK to read more! Ugh. Too much work. ...I have to CLICK to read more! Ugh. Too much work. Kidding man. Great post. Really glad you're down there directing shit to some degree. As someone new to anarchism, your point of 'duty' is simple. Not sure why people had trouble with it. Although if the occupiers are willing to convene in McD's....I'd say they're losing some credibility.ConArtisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06589488269027542518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-77620875286728353132011-11-17T08:36:56.777-08:002011-11-17T08:36:56.777-08:00I had a really insightful comment but my NoScript ...I had a really insightful comment but my NoScript addon was acting up and it got posted under anonymous, then disappeared. Now I don't feel like rewriting it, but it was insightful and perhaps paradigm-shifting.Todd S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10212986450069403803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9339045.post-2508919559957085042011-11-17T08:36:14.283-08:002011-11-17T08:36:14.283-08:00Gavin, yes but there are people who want to say th...Gavin, yes but there are people who want to say they supported the original draft for street cred. (I get the joke, trying to join in.)<br /><br />I'm intrigued by the anti-war/empire angle, which I whole-hearted support for promoting. As Scott Horton of Antiwar Radio says, that should be the first priority and has the ability to unite left and right - civil and just plain libertarians. I've been to OccupyMN a couple times, the first day with a Say No to Iraq War sign. People liked it, but I didn't see any other anti-war signs. <br /><br />In DC, which I know mostly from your posts so far, it's interesting in that the old lefty anti-war crowd has it's own occupation. Single issue anti-war people are probably over there. But they lack all energy and youth. While it seems it would be hard to get the McPherson crowd (and other occupations) to rally for antiwar/empire. Thoughts?Mark Ericksonhttp://norwegianshooter.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com